Episode 57: Engaging and Supporting a Classroom of Diverse Learners

Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the inclusion think tank podcast where we talk about inclusive education why it works and how to make it happen. This podcast is brought to you by all in for inclusive education.

Today I am joined by my guest Luke LaChac. Luke is a middle school history teacher, who celebrates all of the learners in his classroom. on today’s episode, we discuss how Luke keeps his diverse population of learners engaged during his daily lessons.

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Arthur: I want to welcome everyone back to a new episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast.

I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm joined today by my guest, Luke LaChac. Luke, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation.

Luke: I’m the one that's totally grateful. This is a an avenue for more people to experience that everybody should get to experience and to be a part of that is really an honor.

So thank you for having me.

Arthur: Yes. Yes, you're welcome. It is it's so true. I love being able to host the podcast and reach such a wide audience. We're recording in New Jersey, but, this reaches around the world. So it's it's really a great way to share, what's going on and the great things that people are doing in the world of education. Easy way to share it around the world.

Arthur: So to begin the conversation session, can you please share with us a little bit about yourself, your profession, and what you like most about your job and how you became interested in the education world of inclusive education?

Luke: So I've been teaching in Somerset Hill School District. This is my 11th year.

However, my educational journey didn't really start with this district, even though it was my first avenue in life After college, when I was a junior in high school, I started working for a school for children with all types of learning challenges, and they had a very unique philosophy on how to help students and help all students in a way that provides them all the same playing field to play on.

And I ended up working there every summer until I was in college. And when I was in college, I would come home from school early because college ends a little bit earlier and then worked during their school year and summer. They really instilled a lot of what I still use in the classroom today and helping being able to differentiate in ways that all students cannot only achieve success but feel proud.

And it's a true passion of mine. And I really love, I guess, the best part of my day when… Sorry about that, tripping over my words after teaching for a full day, the best part of my day is, is having a student get the gleam in the eye. The school that I first worked for, as it's called, Celebrate. The Children in Denville is honored by Monica Osgood and Lauren Blazak, and they taught us many different ways to reach students, to make everyone feel included, to make sure that their have an option for success. But it all centered around this theme of finding the gleam in the eye, finding the passion, the student.

Luke: It's not something that's easily easy to articulate, but when it's happening, there's no doubt that it's happening, seeing a student have, Oh, that makes sense, or a student feeling proud to have something and seeing that gleam in the eye that they've connected to the material and learn something, and especially at the middle school level, feel good about themselves. And that's something to be a part of all of my teaching philosophies.

Arthur: that is so true and I'm glad that you mentioned at the middle school level because that age can be difficult for everybody.

So for you to to be in a position as an educator where you get to teach these lessons and educate these students and then like you said, you see that connection of what you're teaching and then like realizing that they understand that they get it. That's a real that is a really cool feeling for sure.

Arthur: Can you share with us, how do you define inclusive education?

Luke: So my initial response to this is going to sound so wildly wrong thinking about this question and having this be like the first few words, but I promise, give me the air space all make sense. What inclusive education is, is giving everybody the same assignment.

And that couldn't sound more incorrect, but I promise it has good context to it when I say that any task you do, whether it be in school, at home, or wherever, it's not the same task every person. If someone tells me to lift 100 pounds, it's going to be a lot different to my son, who's three years old. I'm asking him to lift 100 pounds.

So when I say give the same assignment, I mean challenge every student in the same way. When I see the words or hear the words. Inclusive education, it's empowering every student making them feel no one left out, and making sure that when the assignment is given, when instruction is given, when anything that I do for all students is given, it feels the same to each student.

And that might mean giving them special tools that individualize their approach and that also just might mean giving everything to everyone, all of those tools to make sure everyone's viewing the same assignments, no one feels othered and can lift them up.

Luke: I often find some jargon or vernacular that comes with being an educator can be charged and people have a lot of different connotations with it.

So I like to start with definitions before I give to the word. In that sense, it's equity. Inclusion is equity. Giving everybody the same opportunity given their strengths and challenges, that they may have a long road.

Arthur: That was brilliant. And I like what you said about giving the assignments like the chores at home. But that's different., it's different for everybody because everybody's Home is different, but it's a 100-pound weight like, yeah, that could be more difficult for more people, for different people, and easier for others.

Yeah, that was that was really good And I'm glad you gave the preface of, it's going to sound like

Luke: and you would say nice meeting you. I didn't want my first thing to be that with you, and you say,  that's exactly the opposite of what we teach and preach. But that’s the philosophy.

Arthur: And that that was really good. That was a great analogy to bring it around.

So why do you feel it is important to support diverse learners? And also, how do you view diverse learning in your classroom?

Luke: I think it's imperative upon every educator to include every student in the maximum possible.

One of the reflective exercises I do at the end of the week is often; who didn't get it, who felt left out? My answer is hopefully nobody. But if it is somebody, I have to figure out a way to bridge that gap in the future.

So inclusive education is giving everybody, as I kind of said before, everybody the same tools.

Luke: But inclusive education is being able to provide not only what's in the curriculum, but in the hidden curriculum to all students.

Because I think equally, again, at the middle school level are just as important. Middle school is not easy for everybody. I couldn't agree with you more.

I often describe it to people as it's the time that everyone wants to be looked at all the time, and not looked at by anybody all the time, and to have both of those two feelings inside of you.

When people think of a 12 year old or a 13-year-old, they might think different, like maybe awkward. They felt awkward themselves. And that's what causes a lot of what we see in their behavior, their action, Their intention is this dis-regulation.

So allowing all of those students to feel not only successful but like winners is is what I think is important for all educators to have.

Because at the end of the day, you want students to leave being better people going on to the next grade. And that means building, helping build their sense of self in a way that's not deprecating but empowered.

Arthur: Yes, that was very well said. I like the I want to be seen, but I don't want to be seen.

Luke: I want to be looked at by everybody and nobody.

Arthur: Right? And everybody look away. that's so true. It’s so important to have, you know, educators like yourself and so many others in that middle school age range because it can be, like I said, it can be difficult for every student. And then I think about myself having a disability and being in middle school and thankfully my experiences in middle school and even in high school, college, and elementary school even, I was able to make a good set of friends who I'm still friends with to this day, As a 43-year-old adult.

It’s really great to be able to say that because not everyone may have that experience. But to have someone like yourself, an educator and a teacher position to feel that way about your students is really, really encouraging. So it’s great to hear.

Luke: Thank you.

Arthur: So my my next question is, What do you see your role being in meeting the needs of the students with disabilities as a general education teacher.

Luke:  I often compare the way I look at as a general education teacher to the architecture we see around us in universal design.

So going into a store, you might have a set of steps to go up, but you also see a ramp right next to it that's accessible to everybody, that ramp.

And honestly, no one really honest about the steps they use. The ramp, that universal design allows everyone to use it in an equal way. Same thing as having a door handle versus a door knob. If you're having a challenge with fine motor skills, that door handle is a lot easier. It's just pushing. That's gross motor.

Luke: When educating, I was going through my time at Seton Hall University, we often talked about like, Oh, this would be the worksheet to give to the class and this would be the worksheet that is scaffolded down or chunked in some way based off of different maybe parts of an IEP.

But I thought that felt backward. As a general education teacher, everybody in my room should feel equal. Everyone in the room should feel like the same worth and not othered. So at the beginning of the year, I look at all of the student's modifications. I look at all the students accommodations and see what all students need and those students’ needs.

And instead of just giving it to those students, I give those same modifications to everybody. In the first two months of school. They're learning me as a teacher just as much as I'm learning them as a student. And if I'm handing out an assignment and they're not at the middle school level, everyone has a different experience, but everyone's looking at everybody else all the time to make sure they're feeling normal and am I normal?

And if one student has a worksheet, that's 20 questions and another student has a worksheet, that's three and big letters. It's very obvious for them to see that difference between each other. And that goes back to that question. I always ask myself, who got left behind or who felt othered or who felt left out?

Luke: So if I give that to everybody and they all have that same sheet, I'm seeing who's taking the whole period to do it. I'm seeing who needs specialized help, like with maybe rewording some of the questions.

But the argument I guess that would play out devil's advocate would be, well, you're not challenging your students that don’t  those modifications. Well, they're going to finish that sheet a little bit quicker or maybe a lot quicker. Some of the time. And that's where I'm learning where they're learning growth and potential is.

So after they're done with that, okay, I'm going to push you to find this from this text that corresponds that question before I'm going to push you to find this and that and allow them to go up their ladder that works for them and their challenges and allow the students that need a little bit more tools or more help or more time go up their ladder for their challenges.

Luke: So I'm individualizing the plan for the students in my room. But as a general education teacher, everyone is feeling the same. And if a student who might help me might only be able to get that done that day, even though I rarely give worksheets, for example, but get that done that day, they hit the requirement. Everybody got that sheet, it's done.

And the students that were able to go through that very quickly are now learning at their challenging level, learning at their level of growth, which is again, what education is. The whole point of this is for students to learn, not feel stressed out about due dates. Now feel stressed out about what is on their test. they're always in a state of fight or flight because they're going through puberty.

They're 10, 11, 12, 13 years old. In order for them to learn not get executive functioning, to handle something in a certain specific time and check the schedule. But if they're actually learning, they need to be relaxed, they need to feel comfortable, they need to feel like they're an environment where they're celebrated.

Arthur: Why can't we all have teachers like you? Oh, my goodness. That's just sounds like it sounds like a great learning environment for everybody. And like you said, it takes away the constant stress that they're feeling for whatever reason for being the preteen and the teenager. And it Yeah, that is that's really great, and when you're more relaxed and comfortable, you can take in so much more information and learn so much more, it all that all makes sense. It really does make sense.

That's so funny how like the simple things that make sense. Wow.

Arthur: Why do you feel it is important to engage and interest your students and part two of that is how do you achieve this in your classroom?

Luke: I would say one of the most difficult things in or aspects of education is to have a 12-year-old who has access to a phone at home and TikTok and a Netflix show that they're excited about and video games excited, and excited about the fall of Rome.

And while the fall of Rome is exciting, it's still not as exciting as all those different apps and different things that they can do. I think the only way students are going to learn the content is if they either feel ownership of it or they feel passionate about it.

And that's what I look at as engaged. As a teacher, there's so many different types of instruction.

So there might be a day that I'm doing direct instruction, there might be a day we're doing cooperative learning group analysis or floating tables, or we're going over a rubric for a giant summative project.

For all of those different methods of teaching. I have a different way to get the students to feel passionate about it or ownership over it.

Luke: So I guess I'll start with the first, which would be like the dreaded direct instruction. You know, the idea of students are in the class and all they're doing the entire period is writing notes as the teacher talks and, my first year of teaching and my brain like, oh, differentiating that would be maybe giving them fill in the blank notes.

But then I ask that question, who is feeling left out? The students who are trying so hard to find the exact sentence they're looking at on the board. And I'm on a new slide and now they're feeling like they're overwhelmed. Why is everybody else's pencils down? What's going on? This doesn't feel right. And and trying to modify that.

Luke: And what I chose to do and something I incorporate in all aspects of teaching is competition. The first thing I learned in my first few years teaching middle school is all they want to do is compete. There needs to be a winner and there needs to be a loser. And how? As a teacher, I'd ask myself, how can I make a competition where students feel like winners and there are no losers?

During direct instruction, what I do to get students engaged because it does have to happen. I do have to give those facts before we can do a fun project with it, is I gamify the direct instruction so I have my students right now set up in five different cooperative learning groups. And in those cooperative learning groups, it's a new unit, a new day.

Luke: Everyone takes out that blank piece of paper for notes, everyone. And I put that one piece of printer paper in the center of the group. They come up with the team name, they collaborate, they own the name. They're excited about being the whatever slang word, I don't understand, but I check to make sure it's okay and when the lesson starts on the board, I'll be, you know, let's say a typical slide and I can happily send you over some of these slideshows so you can see them. I don't know if you do the visuals or whatnot.

Instead of it just being, let’s say Rome fell in the year, 500. Year is jumbled up, bolded and big and so it doesn't have. Yeah, it's like whatever, like whatever jumble I turn it into. And the first student to raise their hand and un-jumble the word, gets a point for their group at the end of the lesson.

The group that has the most points if that's if that's the only direct instruction day when it comes to the final assessment, where that's going to be a test unit or a big project, that unit, the winning group, gets two extra credit points and two extra credit points is virtually nothing when you're a teacher. When I'm looking at that, I'm like, That's not going to inflate grades.

It's not going to give an improper, like, I guess, analysis of how the students are doing data wise. But they want those two points that is that is worth fighting tooth and limb for it. So what this does is it allows me to include all of these students and extend the time where I'm let's say we're writing something down right on the first day, the first time we have this, some of the students that I know would need more time for notes or maybe their accommodation combination for them to have a printout of notes.

Luke: I let them know at the beginning, I'm going to give these to you at the end of class or I'm going to give you these notes before we start, before tomorrow or before the class tomorrow. And that way they are still challenged to write the notes with their peers. They want to write notes just like every else writes notes.

Nothing looks different. And they know that if they do get lost, it's okay. I did my best at that time. I put my pencil down. I know I'm getting these notes. I’m not drowning. But the other aspect of it is allowing students like that to feel really celebrated.

Luke: Some of my favorite favorite moments as a teacher is when one of those students who might have different learning challenges, who might have a lot kind of to face and not always the tools to that word pops up on the board that's jumbled up and their brain gets it, and they might be like a half a second or a second slower than that first person who put their hand up.

But that's the one I saw first. And the students aren't aware of that. And when he gets that right or she gets that right and their whole table is stoked, they are applauding. I remember one time we had a student jump out of the seat. Yeah.

And that student is not only being celebrated and that's great. Like the sense of self, they're being celebrated for doing something that is academic, something that they might not have had public celebration for an entire time. Like as a student, they the sense of like being a 12 or 13-year-old, not a lot of them are saying on the inside, I'm so great, I'm so smart, I'm so wonderful.

A lot of them are having negative self-talk. So the student who might have negative self-talk or might realize that their classes are a little different than their other their peers schedules or what their what's in front of them might be different than what's in front of others. In other classes, they're having a moment or like I was the one that ensemble, the word.

I figured out words better than you and I, and look how they can thank me for their extra credit. This this moment of like just feeling glory and that's how I do it during direct instruction. And it really allows me to avenues needed and I really couldn't do all of this.

And I have to say this because I owe them a huge thank you. My ICS teacher who helps me because this is a lot of planning, a lot of time and not a lot of teachers get are given that time my principal, Lisa Garafolo who has allowed us once a marking period to take a full day to meet, to plan and to prep, to make sure all of this stuff can be that seamless.

Luke: And without Lisa being being so generous to give us that time and without Katie Riley, my cooperating teacher, who has done an amazing amount in terms of helping all students feel at the same level, I wouldn't be able to do this. There's not enough time in the day.

Arthur: Wow, that's great. It's and it just again, it just sounds like so much fun and like you said, they love competitions at that age, they love the competition. So it's a really, really cool thing and sounds like a lot of a lot of fun. And it you're still learning the information, but you're making it fun and, bringing it into their world of the social media age and the TikTok age and all that.

Luke: And I, I often think of myself as a student. When it was time to do the slideshow, I was not paying a single attention to a single word being said. I wasn't like thinking to myself, Oh, let's read the slideshow. It was, all right, well, let's just write down, let's go on to the next thing versus now, we have to we have to find the word. We have to figure out what the word is. And now I'm reading the whole sentence out loud and then let's go into, I think, pair share and discuss it. And if I only do like the word jumbles, they'll be trivia questions that like pop up that are off topic and about that like about like something they would know.

And for some reason these trivia questions are often stuff when I'm seeing some of my students who might have like extra learning challenges when I see them go on and off-topic website and they are looking at something that they're interested in that somehow is related to that trivia. And only like one or two people would really know that I'm giving them that same opportunity to feel that success, that equity that they deserve.

Arthur: Yeah, that's cool. That's awesome.

Can you share with us how other educators can design their classrooms to be accessible to learners and a place where diversity is celebrated?

Luke: I think when it comes to, let's say, new educators, educators that just want to like, revamp what they're doing, it goes back to that same reflective question of who felt left out today, who needs this, who, who needs something more than what I'm giving and to not look at it in a way of I have to give more, but look at it in a way of how can I reframe this to go into like I brought it up a little bit before I alluded to it, getting that dreaded rubric for a giant project.

And that was the day that we were all going to read a two page document written by my whatever-year-old teacher that doesn't speak the same way I do, and just really try to pay attention. And then when we start the project, have no idea what to do, ask the teacher what to do and then have them get mad at me for asking about what's on the project. We spent the whole period going over it.

That feeling that I felt 100,000 times. Like for me, I'm a competitive person and I like sports and I like a lot of things in that nature. So I reframe it to something that that suits me. There's no one fix. If you're something somebody that's really into like drama or plays or music, there's definitely a way to to incorporate that into allowing people to feel all, all equal.

Luke: So for my students, when we get to that rubric and it's time to go over it again, go to competition where, who can read it for us? Who can tell us what to underline. And some of those things that we need to underline are already bolded. So it's not too much reading and disengagement. And when we get done with, I'd say like a paragraph and there are four people in total, one person read, three people tell us what underline they come up.

I have a little basketball hoop set up and it is very much rigged and I have it like it's difficult to score on. I make that a point, a challenge. But this is harder than a carnival game kind of thing. They shoot at it. If they if they make it, that's like they get a point on the board to compete and two points extra credit.

Luke: But that shot is really hard to make. And I was actually doing that one year and I had a student who had some challenges in terms of muscular like the movement, being able to throw a ball overhand and have it hit the hoop. And when I had my ‘who felt left out’ and I did that the first time, I was like, obviously him.

He's not going to want to participate. He doesn't like to go up and take that shot the same way. And that's when I added the four point extra credit hoop that I figured out with basic physics.

I bought one of those like trash bin that's shaped like a basketball hoop. And I have that on a table and it's much lower.

It's much easier to be able to throw it to. And it's one of those like inflatable balls that are meant for I got two-year-olds play basketball set and you can really just roll it from where you are. But if you land in that hoop without it falling over, that's four points. So it's double.

And the thing is, all the other kids who normally would take that basketball hoop shot now want to do that one cause it's a bigger challenge and all every one of them do from now, and  I promise till June, it's happened all my ten years of being here, they throw that thing so hard and that basket flies down and never get it. But that year that I had that student, oh, he figured it out. You got to do like a soft toss. He figured  it out.

He's the one that can make it. He's the one that was obsessed with that. Again, celebrating success versus feeling other than failure.

Arthur: Right. I like what you said about reframing. it's like it's it's not adding, it's just reframing reshaping of how it's presented, how everything is presented to everybody. And what you keep referencing of who feels left out, who was left out of a certain thing.

That's such a great way to think of all of your students to say like, okay, that this really worked for every single student in this room. And if it didn't, why didn't it? And how can we reframe and reshape things so that it works?

Luke: I’ve only spoken to the passion and not the ownership in the sense of that same rubric, because I will forget, after a full day of teaching.

But all the questions that they have to answer, like so right now my students are doing a project about Marco Polo and they're making a political action committee for the election of Marco Polo to Kublai Khan's Court something that would probably bore most adults to tears. Topic like a content that even history people like. This is really exciting that Marco Polo worked on Kublai Khan’s court but in this video they have to have like about 12 pieces of information and evidence to back that up.

And I write out like, where is Marco Polo from? What did he claim to see? Da da da da da. A typical assignment. But instead of just leaving it there again, that shot for the basketball hoop. Who can translate it from LeChac to seventh grade? Who can rewrite the question that you have on this piece of paper that I wrote because I'm an old man in a way that you would better understand it.

Luke: And if a student correctly tells us what to write down, something in their vernacular and they all write it down, that's another shot.

So allowing them to own the material. So when the next day I'm never having What are we doing? What am I supposed to add? What am I was to read? I reframed something that wasn't working for myself and made it a lot easier for myself instead of making it cost more energy.

Because now every student, even if they do ask that which isn’t common. What did you write down? What's the question? You wrote it in your words, right? And if of course they lose that I have a class copy made up with those questions that they had that day because I do it along with them.

Arthur: Wow. Thatsounds like so much fun.

And like you said, with the with the subject matter, it’s not the most exciting always, but it's like it makes makes it fun and it gives them a chance. Your students a chance to shape things, how they would say things and yeah, that's that's awesome. Wow.

Arthur: So thank you so much for this conversation. And I just have one one last question, and that is do you have any go to resources that can be books, movies, websites, YouTube videos, any resources that you would recommend to other educators who are looking to support the diverse learners in their classroom?

Luke: I think there's so many answers, so there's a model in special education that the school I talked about beginning, Celebrate The Children, called DIR.

And if you take time to Google what what DIR is and taking like the idea of helping students learn through their own passions, seeing the hypothetical example, a student who really, really likes trains and he's obsessed with trains and that's all he wants to do. And how dare you make him go to math class? If not learning and playing with trains?

Why not take trains to math? Let's execute questions about Velocity. Or it looks like science, but science velocity and how trains actually work and function. Let's bring it to math, where we're using trains as our vehicle for doing whatever math problem or how fast that train is going. Let's bring it to literacy, where we can read aspects of trains.

And what I'm sure there are stories about it. I'm not a literacy teacher, but let's bring it to social studies where we can talk about and learn about the American history of those trains being set up.

Luke: What happened to the people that worked on those railroads. And we want to talk about inequity and going into that history and learning those different civil rights movements from that ended up stemming from that only too far after.

So you can take what a student likes and figure out how to make it a vehicle to drive their education and DIR has a big really influenced that kind of thought for me.

The other one is going to be really deeply unpopular, and that's okay. I'm fine with is AI as an LLM model.

I don't go up to AI and say, Well, I have to teach this class. What should I do? I often will ask Claude and say, Hey, you be Greenspan, you be Harvard professor, you be X, Y, and Z. And I also will take on that “personality.: I'll have it ask me different ways in a method of of of ways that I could be improving my class, have it put me on my toes because I do much better under pressure with the fire underneath my feet.

Luke: And then I'll say something like my answer and I'll give it back. So I'm like, Is this a good idea? And that's kind of my check of like, now it's not a good idea or yes, this could work and I'll play with out different personalities and add something. I use Claude for that. First prompt is always parentheses. Be this person as an advisor, as my teacher and education and tell me and have me through the Socratic method, get to a place where the student doesn't feel left out anymore because the answer is in there somewhere.

Luke: But we often as educators, we're exhausted. It's a lot of work we're doing at home and at work. It's it's a lot. And for to take a moment instead of like, okay, I have to research this thing, I have to read it. Let's talk about education the way we're talking about it now. Like this. I love this. This is a passion.

I can do this forever. And for me, it was easy to have a conversation, then read yet another textbook or another log or another piece of information that doesn't interact with me but set up something that does interact with me, have it challenged me, have it, question me. I'll even go so far as to have the personality of Dr. House from the TV show on Fox and have it be like, okay, yeah, that's a good idea.

Luke: Yeah, challenge me in that way because I want to get all that personality and get something that I can make the best out of it.

Arthur: It’s so funny because there is a lot of conversation about A.I. these days, and you started off by saying that might not be a popular opinion. But the thing is like listening to you talk, I never would have thought to use it in that way.

And that makes so much sense.

So I'm sure there's somebody listening that that will, you know, pop something, spark something in their and their mind to say like, oh my goodness, I can use it in that way, too. It's not that's not a terrible thing. It can be a way to spark creativity for yourself as an educator, to bring new ideas and into your classroom so that it's great.

Luke: We all have that like TV show or movie or personality. It's like, Oh, yeah, But I'm like friends with them, like, I watch the show. I'm like, these I get it's Parks and Rec, but they're all also my friends are not aware of it and asking and asking you to be this person from Parks and Rec.

Like I would love to have a conversation about it, like the season with Aziz Ansari, is insane. When bring this up, what is he going to say? What is that going to do to my brain? Have it be these bots that are comfortable and then work your way up to doctors when you're looking at efficacy and look doctors education when you're looking at like the efficacy of it, how do you think it would work, how it compares to Bloom's taxonomy and then start having fun with it!

So it's so easy to get bogged down with what feels stressful about this type of job. And my district does a lot to help us with mindfulness and keep us in a good place.

Luke: But even it's just it's taxing and there's no ifs, ands or buts about it's been the way since. It's from beginning. Having that ability to have fun with what you're doing, to feel like you're in college again talking about it.

It keeps everything fresh.

Arthur: Yeah. And like you said, you have your professional life and you have your home life and you have to keep your mind fresh reading new things and learning new things. It's, you know, I think it's it's all part of that, so you don't get comfortable with where you are, like to challenge yourself.

I love that idea for sure, to incorporate the aspect of things into generating more creativity and, bringing more ideas, different ideas to your to your students.

Luke:  Well, I think you summed it up perfectly with challenging yourself. That's all about it. The only way you're going to grow is if you challenge yourself. That was the perfect way to say it.

Arthur: Luke this a great conversation. I am so, so happy that we had a chance to connect and have this conversation and. We already said, we're recording this, it's March and we're already looking forward to our summer conference

Luke: and I absolutely think weather-wise we both are. But this is, this was truly an honor. I had a great time and it was really nice to meet you virtually.

And I'm really excited to meet you in person.

Arthur: Yes. Yes, I agree. I'm looking forward to the summer conference with you in person. And thank you again for your time and we will be in touch.

Luke: Thank you so much.