Episode 22: Using Inclusive Language in School----and Beyond

On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation, Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.

Transcript

Arthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to have my guest today with me, Dr. Jessica McQueston.

So, Jessica, thank you for joining me today. It is a pleasure to have you on and to see you again.

Jessica: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be on here.

Arthur You and I, had a chance to talk a few weeks ago about this conversation.

And I'm really excited for the information that we will be sharing and discussing today on the podcast.

So to get started, can you share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Jessica? And also, can you share with us how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?

Jessica: Yeah. So I'm Dr. Jessica McQueston, but I go by Jessica. I even tell my students something like just it's fine. I'm not concerned about a title.

And so I'm currently an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University, which is about an hour north of Houston, Texas. And so I just joined the faculty here this year, and so I was at a previous institution for two years.

So, definitely fun to start during COVID as a faculty member. Prior to this, I was a K through six special educator, and general educator. Even a literacy interventionist for a bit. I just feel like, it depended on the week, and what my job title was, and as special educators, I feel like that's kind of the name of the game we are flexible, we do what needs to happen for our students.

I also am someone with a disability and so I know we'll talk about language a little bit later, but I experienced disability about ten years ago. And so, one thing that I think is important is, I was always seen as like, I embraced this mentality of like, oh, I'm helping others. I don't need accommodations. I don't need support. And, again, about ten years ago, life happened, this diagnosis, that diagnosis, whatever. And so I've had to kind of adjust and, like, view my change or like kind of process this change of, like, accepting help and needing help and like navigating that.

Jessica: And so I will say, in the last like 3 to 4 years, I've really started to embrace my identity as someone with a disability and, I would say around that time, too, I started to kind of really take ownership and say like, no, I'm disabled.

And again, I know we'll talk about the power of language in a little bit, but, I view it as a positive and it's part of my identity. And I share that with my students, and with anyone I work with.

I'm pretty open about it, because I think there's nothing to hide about it. Like I'm not ashamed of my disability at all. So what really drove me to inclusive education? Well, it really stems honestly from my childhood.

So I went to school in Texas, in the Houston area, like my K-through-12 schooling. And we didn't really have students with disabilities around. And so I know, some of this is shifting, but students, especially with the most extensive or complex support needs, they were in a totally different wing.

Like they were not allowed, quote-unquote, “allowed” to come out and be with anyone else without a disability. I think there was this fear that they may get us sick or like they can't handle it. And I know we still see that today with segregation, but, really just seeing students excluded in schools.

And then I think what really hit home of why we need inclusive education for me was in middle school. My mom was a special education paraprofessional and I started volunteering with Special Olympics because several of her students were participating in Special Olympics.

And so all of a sudden, I realized that there were students that I had gone to school with, since I was like in kindergarten in first grade that I had never known. And they literally lived in my neighborhood. Right. And I had no idea they were the same grade as me. And so that was really kind of eye-opening to me of like, wow, this is problematic. Even as a 12, 13-year-old, I recognized that like, this should not be happening.

Jessica: And so what I started to look for colleges. I wanted to look at both special education and general education and specifically elementary education. Because of those experiences, because of realizing that this is still happening, students are still segregated.

And, so I ended up going to the University of New Mexico for their dual license program. So I was able to graduate with a general education and special education license to teach. And so I really enjoyed that because it focused in on inclusive education, and I felt like I could kind of bridge that gap between these like often like siloed communities in schools. And so I thought that I could help bridge that gap.

Then of course, then I got into schools as a new teacher and realized, wow, this is still happening. It's not just from when I was a kid in the nineties, like the early nineties, late eighties, and all that. This is still happening in 2009 is when I started teaching.

So yeah, I just see the value in it. I've advocated for that with my students with disabilities as a teacher, and so I just really am very passionate about inclusive education.

All right. There's a very long answer to that.

Arthur: It was great, though. And it showed that I always say it's so interesting how kids, children understand things a lot better sometimes than adults do.

As a child, you realized like, hey, wait, this is a whole group of people that live in my neighborhood that are the same age as me, that I don't know that I've ever seen before.

And like, what is that about? Like you had questions about that and that was that. When you said that, I was like, wow, like that's really wild to think about. And but the fact that you noticed it as a child yourself to say, like, wait, something, something's not right here.

What is and how can we fix it? And how can you be a part of making that change is really impressive to have those thoughts as a child and to really recognize that, again, something that's just not right about this. There's something that needs to be done.

Arthur: Yeah. So, yeah, I'm glad that you did give that answer and shared so much of your own story because I think, in sharing these stories, I say all the time, but the guests that we have, your passion, and your dedication to making the world more inclusive in education it really shows. And then, when you tell your story, it's like, okay, because you've been thinking about this for a very long time.

Yeah. So, like, it makes sense.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

Arthur: It’s not just something that just popped into your head like, Oh, I want to do this. And it's like, no, you really notice the need for the change and, then you made it your career path and you're doing great things.

Jessica: I mean, I try.

Arthur: Yes, As we all do. Right?

Jessica: Yes. We're all giving our best

Arthur: So this season on the podcast, we're focusing on those in school leadership positions and how they can impact and influence the inclusive school environment.

So as a professor who is educating the next generation of educators, what role and influence do you feel higher education professionals have on the future of inclusive education?

Jessica: Oh, I feel like that's a huge question.

And. I really view it as like, wait let me backup. In society, we obviously know what we want, so many of us are, fighting for inclusive education, inclusive housing, inclusive environment and communities, And yet we still are having this fight.

And so one of the things that I think about as a professor is that we have that impact on future educators that are going out in the field and, can ultimately be the people that advocate for inclusive education for students with disabilities, and so I really view it as like we're setting the tone in higher ed.

So what we allow students to and when I say students, I mean university students, but what we allow university students to submit for their classes and how they talk about students with disabilities and how we perpetuate or address language on how we talk about students with disabilities. It really sets the tone for their career.

So if we as higher ed professionals, if we don't kind of set that tone, set that expectation and kind of address that, they're going to hear some negative remarks in schools. They're going to hear some outdated language. They're going to hear and see these things. But here's how they can advocate for it and here's how they can change.

Jessica: I really feel like what we do is so important because not only do we have the ability to change the future for a group of students like K through 12 students each year. But really, when I'm preparing pre-service educators, if I'm like, for example, I'm working with between my two undergrad classes, I have, I think like 45 to 50 students.

And so I'm ultimately impacting 50 times 25 students that they'll have each year, and so what we do here in higher ed, I think, is so important. Like, we're the starting point and we have to kind of open their eyes to the value of inclusive education and really being advocates for students with disabilities.

I also think, and most, many programs for pre-service teachers might only have one class on special education. And so, especially if they're general educators, they might have that one class. And so when we think about it, we have this one opportunity, we have this 15 weeks, this one semester to make this change, in how they think. Because, again, I can't control what other professors are teaching, not only at my institution, but all institutions across the U.S. like I don't have that ability. I would love to have a magic wand and just say like teach inclusive education and teach the power of language. Teach this. But I don’t, right?

Jessica: So I really think that we are the starting point where we set the tone for how they talk about students because we're not kind of fixing issues. We're like teaching them from the ground up.

And so that's one thing that keeps me in higher education because, yes, I do miss being in the classroom. Even with all the chaos the last few years, there are times I'm like, I wish I could just go back in the classroom. I really miss it. I miss working with the kids and I love it. And then I think about like, okay, but I’m not only impacting one class over this year like I'm impacting hundreds if not thousands of students every year because I'm teaching their future teachers.

Arthur: Wow, that's so true. Like you said, for however many students they're teaching each year, you have an impact because they're taking the knowledge that you gave them in their courses and they're taking it with them into their professions.

And again, you said, it's very interesting that you said they may only have one special education course, and they're expected to learn so much in just a 15-week semester when there's so much information there.

And you can hope that students will continue to learn on their own and educate themselves about certain topics and look more, to look deeper into certain things that are covered in the class. But just the fact that they only are required to take one course in special education, that’s a lot to take in. And as I said, in just one short semester, 15 weeks go by very quickly.

Jessica: Well, there are also programs that don't even have a whole class. My previous institution, it was just a few weeks of one class.

And so, imagine, we as professors, have to make such a big impact when we only have one class or only one part of a class. Like it's so important.

And so I just really feel like if we want to make this change. We talk about how many students are excluded. I know we had talked about this on our like before our meeting of how many students are still excluded and segregated from their peers without disabilities, and so if we want to change that, we have to kind of get this new generation that are going out into the field and really make this impact and really be strong advocates.

Arthur: Yes, for sure. And again, I just kind of like visualize what you were saying, you’re teaching this group of current university students, but then they'll go on to teach for years.

I know teachers that have been teaching for 30 and 40 years. So just to think of that greater impact that you have on, students and it's really it made me think of myself honestly because I also have a disability, and the children that I interact with, with my friends who have

kids and my niece and my nephew and just people that I encounter out in the world and the experience that I can give them of learning about my disability and what it means and why I have to use a wheelchair or why I have to use crutches.

Arthur: It can make them a kind person to someone they meet in school who has a disability and, not think that it's strange that they have to use crutches and they can think of me and say, it's not a problem. It's not a big deal that Johnny, in my class, has to use a wheelchair. So that it's all in the interactions that we have with people that can really have an impact on the broader community around us, and, beyond what we can even reach ourselves as just one person.

Jessica: Yeah. I also think about like, obviously, like I went to school, this wasn't that long ago, right? Like, well, maybe I'm a little bit old, but, the early nineties, like I was in schools and so like I think about like that's really not that long ago and that's still happening, right? And so we still know what's happening by data, and think about people who went to school 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.

They had no experience with people with disabilities. And so despite their age, like if they just happened to be in a segregated kind of school community or state that has a lot of segregation of students with disabilities and like, they really don't have this exposure, this knowledge, this firsthand experience about people with disabilities or they don't know they have experience because disabilities aren't all visible. l present as someone without a disability, which I understand and recognize the privilege of having invisible disabilities, but that's not the case for everyone.

And so I think we have to also recognize and kind of have that conversation with people. Disability doesn't have a look, right? Disability can be any person.

Arthur: True that is so true and so, so important to bring up.

And something else that you brought up which leads into my next question is language. And I know I have been a part of many conversations, especially in the last few years. A lot of conversations have taken place online.

I was a part of an app called Clubhouse, which is just a big, it's voice chat. So you go into the chat rooms, but everybody kind of talks, they talk, they don't type anything. So it's actually you're hearing people's voices that really picked up over the last few years with the pandemic. So there have been a lot of conversations on that app and other places, and in the news, as it relates to language that is used, as the language relates to those who have disabilities.

A few of the conversations that I can think of that have been fairly popular are; not saying the R-word and not using euphemisms like differently-abled or handi-capable. And a big one is the person-first versus identity-first language. So those are all conversations that I've seen and have had with certain people.

So can you talk about the importance of using appropriate language and the effect it can have when we're talking about people with disabilities?

Jessica: Yeah, I think this is so important. And I think first we have to really recognize that diversity is a natural form of human diversity.

And I think when we recognize that, we have to then kind of normalize the conversation around disability. So I think for so long it's sort of like disability is like, oh, they're unique, they're special, they're this, they're that, right, because they're not human-like. And so we might think of them as like babies like perpetual babies. We are created to protect them and this and that.

And so I think we've kind of come a long way, but we still have a long way to go because, again, when we recognize it's a normal part of a normal form of human diversity, we kind of recognize that people's disabilities are human, right? They're not like this other.

And so, you know, I also think that disability is not a bad word. And I think so many people often think, oh, I can't say disability.

I'm going to say like, oh, they're handi-capable instead. And it kind of that I think a lot of people, including myself, we really push back against that because it's like disability is not a bad word. You can say it, it's not something to be ashamed of.

I know some different cultures have different views on it, but I think, it's important. Like I said, it's part of human diversity. People with disabilities have existed since the beginning of time. And guess what?

They're going to keep existing, Right? Like they're not going to disappear tomorrow. Right?

Arthur: Yeah. We're not going anywhere. We're here stay!

Jessica: We’re here to stay! And, let's also think about it throughout someone's lifetime, they have a statistically good chance of experiencing disability at some point in their life.

And so I, I also think, like one other thing that I think about is we have to kind of push back on these euphemisms and also like SPED like I think that's a big one. Oh, they're a SPED student.

They're in SPED. A lot of people in the community really push back on that and even go as far as to say it's a slur. And personally, I agree.

But I think kind of one of the big debates that I'm sure you've seen on Clubhouse and other apps is this idea of identity-first versus person-first.

And so, for a long time, we had identity first, but it was seen as like this othering thing, like, oh, it's the disabled, right? Like this other group of people, they're not included, and not us. And then. And then this like person-first language came around like, oh, I'm a person with a disability, it's a person with Down's syndrome. And that's great, right? It respects the human first as it's just the disability that is just part of them.

Jessica: And then I think in the last few years, this really there's really been a push with some people, again, not all like the disability community, not a monolith. And so there's really been this like push of like no, it's part of my identity is who I am. Personally, I've come to embrace it about myself that I'm disabled.

And again, I know not everyone uses that. And so I think it goes back into like choice, so there's not this like hard and fast rule.It's like, Oh, you have to do this or you have to do that because again, we're not a monolith.

So, we have to respect what each person wants. But I do think it's important to note that, like, we have some people that don't yet, they’re not able to yet communicate their needs. They might not even know that they have a disability.

If you have a first grader, they might not understand or yet be told that they have a disability, And so they haven't had that chance to kind of identify and look at their own identity and see what do I want to be called. How do I want to think about this, and recognize this within myself?

And so. I think it's just something to ask. I know a lot of my university students are like, oh, I would just want a hard and fast rule. And so I always tell them, to start with the person first.

If the person doesn't want that, they'll tell you or you can ask. But especially when you're working with young kids, like you should start with person-first. But again, just ask I think of it as it should just be a question, like pronouns, like what are your pronouns?

Jessica: If someone says they have a disability, then just ask them like, how do you like to refer to yourself, person-first or identity-first? But I, really, this is such a huge topic in the field, and

I think. Yes, it's very important.

Jessica: One thing I will say is that I think how we talk about people, disabilities or disabled people is more important. So are we using deficit-based language? Or are we using strengths-based language?

So I think about the school setting like a K through 12. It's like, I’m sure many of us have looked at IEPs and said like, wow, I just read this entire document and there's not a single thing that they can do in according to this IEP.

It’s all what they can't do. They can't do this, they can't do that. They can't do this. And so, yes, language not only relates to this, like identity first and person first, but also how we talk about people, and so we really have to be respectful. And again, it's part of human diversity.

Jessica: So people with disabilities are people. It seems like a simple concept and yet we still see that, right? We still see people saying like, oh, it’s oh they are just differently abled and it’s like no! Stop with the euphemisms!

Arthur: Like you said, it's part of diversity. And as the saying goes, I'm sure I've used it on this podcast and I know I heard it many times before. If you met one person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability.

So where you prefer identity-first language, I might prefer a person-first language. And that's okay. And I love how you said, you know, the conversations and how we're talking about those who have disabilities and is it a strength or a deficit-based approach.

And that really, truly makes a big difference.

Jessica: Yeah. Well, I think that can also frame so for me I just started kind of using identity-first language. If you were to ask me three or four years ago, I didn't.

So of course, that can evolve over time too. But there are people that I've worked with or talked with or whatever over the years, and they used really harmful language about people with disabilities. And so like with them, I might not use identify with them because you really don't understand that you are really thinking that disability is bad and it's only who I am and, that it makes me be seen as different. And so that's something else to consider too, is like where is the respect? Like, do they understand that disability is just a natural form of diversity, just like anything else? And, that can impact how we talk about our own identity and how we think about students, too, or how they think about students.

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. This concludes part 1 of my conversation with Dr. Jessica McQueston. Join us again next time when we continue our conversation to discuss how an inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and to follow us on social media @NJCIE, until next time