Episode 34: The Power and Importance of Collaboration

On today's episode, I welcome my guests Monica Ahern and Maureen Picolli-Kerne, in this part one of our conversation, Monica and Maureen, share what has surprised them most having both worked in school districts and now as parent advocates. in the episode, they mention a recorded webinar. You can watch that here: https://fb.watch/oOr98rcvBs/?mibextid=74l4GC

Transcript

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education. Why it works and how to make it happen. On today's episode, I welcome my guests Monica Ahern and Maureen Picolli-Kerne, in this part one of our conversation, Monica and Maureen, share what has surprised them most having both worked in school districts and now as parent advocates. They also share some of the common challenges that parents face when they are pushing toward an inclusive education environment for their children.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. I am your host, Arthur Aston. And today I am joined by two guests on the podcast. I'm joined by Monica Ahern and Maureen Piccoli-Kerne for this episode of the podcast. Thank you both for joining me today.

Monica: Thank you for having us.

Arthur: So I would like to start off by asking you both to introduce yourselves and share with us who you are, what you do, and something that you like to do for fun. We can start with Monica and then Maureen. You can share after Monica.

Monica: Okay. My name, as you said, is Monica Ahern. I am a former director of Special Services. I also spent probably over 30 years in education. I was the teacher, a learning disabilities teacher, a consultant, principal. You name it. I probably did it in education. So after I retired, I joined NJCIE, doing presentations for districts, and working with districts and now I work with IncludeNJ as a parent advocate.

For fun, I love to spend time with my family, especially my two grandchildren.

Arthur: That’s great. Maureen, what about you?

Maureen: Hi, my name is Maureen Picolli-Kerne. I have been a Special Ed Director, and a teacher I worked in both with the New York City Board of Education, as well as coming out to New Jersey, where I thought I landed on maybe a different planet. I wasn't quite sure.

I've lived in New Jersey all my life. I've been in education since I was in high school, many experiences as a director, and as a teacher of students with autism. Just some great, and wonderful experiences. I have worked very hard to push for inclusion in everything that I do in both school and in the community. And my favorite thing to do is put me on a beach anywhere anyhow, any day, And I am a happy soul.

Arthur: Yes, any day at the beach is a good day. I. I agree. That is one of my favorite things to do as well, is to be at the beach. And again, it doesn't matter if it's summertime or not. I just really enjoy it.

For the next question, this can be both of you can share our and that is what would you say is the most surprising thing you have seen in the transition from working within the district to working with parents?

And what do you feel makes you so effective at working with districts for an inclusive education?

Maureen: I think I'll I'll start it and then Monica can jump in. I think one of the thing is, Monica and I both kind of say we've been on both sides of the fence. When I was working in a school district, I thought that we were doing a really good job collaborating with parents, working with them as partners.

That was one of the things that we all prided ourselves on. As I started to work with parents, I really see that the collaboration that we thought was happening was really a one-sided collaboration. So one of the things that was very surprising to me was how districts do not understand how to effectively collaborate with parents in a way that they feel like they were a part of the team.

Monica: I echo that as well. I think as an advocate who works throughout the entire state from the tip of Bergen County down through Atlantic County, it continuously surprises me, and not in a good way when I see child study teams who don't treat parents with respect, who don't treat parents as equal partners at the table. When I have the opportunity to do child study training and work on the other side with districts, that's the first thing I work with them and say, a little respect goes a long way. So I think it's constantly surprising when I see parents being treated so disrespectfully and not being treated as part of the collaborative process. And I think one of the things that, as Maureen said, we do really well is that because we can see both sides of it and because we have been on both sides of it, we do understand the restraints that a district is under or the financial strains or the political strain.

So we are able to share that with the parent and be able to sit at the table and try and build relationships rather than just kind of go on the attack on either side. So I think that's what makes Maureen and I really good at what we do because we're able to really help walk that line and build collaborative relationships.

Maureen: And I think one of the other things that amazed me is that we all still speak special ed language, and I call it that. And we believe that parents understand what we are saying, what we are talking about, what we are trying to do. And when I talk to parents, I've come to realize that their understanding, even though there has been tons of training, tons of resources, tons of support, the parents still don't know what they don't know.

So when they go to meetings, when they speak with child study teams, they really don't even understand what the process is, what's being talked about. So for a lot of parents, you'll hear the word frustrated,

Monica: They are afraid to ask questions.

Maureen: Right.

Monica: I’ll say, well, why didn't you ask?

And they'll say, Oh, no, I didn't want them to think I didn't understand. So they feel intimidated about asking questions. I'm shocked at how many parents don't even know what the classification of their child is like. That's the first question. I'll say, well, what are they classified or what's the classification? They don't know, and they're afraid to ask. So I think that's shocking.

Maureen: And just on the inclusion side of this, there are just so many parents that I talked to who don't even realize that inclusion is an option because it's an option that was never presented to them by their child study team. They were told from the beginning, you know, this is the best place for your child

This is where they learn, well, this is where they will progress. So parents grow up believing that inclusion isn't even an option that they consider until Monica and I start talking to them about it.

Arthur: Yes. I think, like you said,

Maureen: we talk a lot, by the way.

Arthur: I think it's so important that you that you have had the experience on both sides and you can bring the experience from those both sides to these conversations that you're now having with parents.

And as I mentioned, I have been doing this podcast now for two years, which is hard to believe, but a common thread amongst a lot of the guests that I have, they talk about the importance of collaboration and the lack of collaboration that, you know, that exist. And that is something that still needs to be worked on in a lot of districts.

And when there is the correct collaboration that takes place and how it can lead to successful inclusion. And, so I always love hearing that how, although, my guests have not all been on the same podcast episode, they all say very similar things a lot of times. So that's great to hear.

Arthur: So both of you mentioned that you currently are working with IncludeNJ. Can you share with us some additional information about includeNJ, the work that you do there and the services that the organization provides?

Maureen: I'll start again. I'm going to read your vision to you because I think our vision embraces every everything that IncludeNJ believes and works toward.

And our vision is that we envision a world where people of all ages and abilities are valued, respected and included, and that that is the vision and that is the mission that we work towards. So when we talk about IncludeNJ, we always have our eye on that vision and we try to hold true to that vision.

Maureen: So I will leave that there and let Monica talk about IncludeNJ.

Monica: So IncludeNJ our purpose is to work with parents and empower parents so that they can be the advocates for their child. So the nuts and bolts of it is that we typically we offer two tiers of services. So right now we are basically a two-woman operation and you're looking at it, it's Maureen and I.

And so tier one, usually you will get Maureen and Maureen will work with parents to. She'll review IEPs, she'll talk with parents. She'll kind of figure out what help she can provide the parents. We kind of say behind the scenes. So she's working with parents. She's helping them write letters to the district, helping them fight for inclusive opportunities for their child.

Monica: Sometimes it's just in small areas like push in therapy, sometimes it's in bigger areas where the student is in a self-contained class and we're trying to get them into a general education class. So tier one services really is empowering the parent, teaching the parent, helping them understand what the IEP should look like, what the IEP can contain.

One of Maureen's biggest things is always training for school personnel. So that's a little piece of the IEP that often gets overlooked, and that's Maureen's, where she jumps in and says, What kind of training can we make sure that your teacher or your para gets to make sure that your child is getting what they need? Our goal is always to try and keep tier one, because we really want to empower that parent.

Sometimes the communication or the collaboration falls flat at that point, and the district is kind of like, Nope, absolutely not. This is where we're not moving. So then the parent would get pushed up to tier two, and that's where I come in and I'm the outside or the third party who comes in to try to facilitate better conversation collaboration.

I will attend IEP meetings or 504 meetings with parents. Sometimes I'll again go over IEPs, write letters, help them draft letters, whatever the parent needs, but I'm much more visible. Oftentimes at that point, we're filing for mediation or the district attorney's involved. So I'll communicate with the district attorney for the parent, so I become more visible and we try and work towards whatever problems at all times, empowering the parent, teaching the parent the process and really helping them learn how to advocate for their child through the whole thing.

Monica: If we really can't settle it by due process, we then will refer out to attorneys. We have attorneys who work with us some pro-bono, some on a sliding scale, and then we refer out. But we try not to go to that point. We try to really help and empower parents before then, because the parent has to work with the district for the entire.

Sometimes we get kids at age three, right? They have 18 more years to work with the district. So we really want to make it a very collaborative relationship. And the last thing we want to do is start getting everybody's backs up. So we try and facilitate a relationship that is collaborative, but always, always, always in the best interest of the child, right?

So I think the one thing that Maureen and I always do is what's in the best interest of the child and work from there and help because that's what the parent wants.

Did I leave anything out there?

Maureen: Yeah, There are two other things I think that are important to know, both Monica and I, because we've been in the system for so long, know a lot about outside resources.

So if a parent needs to connect with the the CMO, the care management organization, the children the system of care, if a parent needs to connect with DDD, or DVRS or, the alphabet soup of agencies that are out there that all have their own application, their own process. Monica and I are able to walk the parents through that because I think, as we all know, educating a child is not just about a school in a building, it's a community-wide effort.

So the more we can engage the community in helping the parent help every child, the better off the parent will be, and the other thing that we have started to do is work with districts who are looking to either create or enhance their SEPAG So every district is required by code to have what's called the SEPAG. Some of them are very effective and some of them are really, you know, searching out help.

So Monica and I have been engaged with a couple of districts to really help them because their goal, which is it, which is wonderful goal, is to help create a more inclusive community. So not just the school, not just the district, but entire community. And we've been, I think, very successful in working with SEPAG and help them create them.

What should they look like? How do you kind of navigate this whole SEPAG thing? And we want parents to take ownership of SEPAG right now in a lot of districts. Most of the special ed directors, mostly the special ed director have sort of ownership of SEPAG of what we are trying to do is, again, empower parents so that the SEPAG becomes theirs.

Maureen: It becomes their voice to the Board of Education, to the superintendent, as well as the community.

Monica: And for those who don't know, SEPAG is the Special Education Parent Advisory Group, because Maureen is talking in the special ed alphabet.

Maureen: That’s right!

Monica: So every district is required by the special education code to have this group. It is a parent advisory group.

So if you are listening and your district doesn't have one, you can call it includeNJ, we will help you set one up. And that's something that we do. But you are required. So we have been working with those. A tidbits of information. Just so you know, Maureen and I have been working together for over 24 years at this point.

So she hired me and gave me my first administrative job. So I always refer to her because she, forever will be my boss. So she always she always takes the lead.

Arthur: It’s amazing work that you all are doing. And Maureen, I appreciated what you said there toward the end about it being an inclusive community, outside of the school like that is so true.

It applies to all areas of the community. It’s important in all areas because the children with disabilities are not just in the school buildings. They are in the community. So to make that extension beyond the school walls is so important.

And you all started talking about this a little bit earlier, but can you share some of the common challenges that parents face when they are pushing for inclusive education for their children?

Monica: I think one of the biggest challenges we see parents face is, I always say that everyone goes it no one goes into an education to get rich, right? Everyone goes into education because they feel like they're doing the right thing for kids.

So when parents go to an IEP meeting, oftentimes teachers as child study team members, and directors are telling parents that the best thing they can do for their child and if they really love and care for their child, they will put them in a small class, a self-contained class with 1 to 1 instruction, and that's where they're going to learn best. And I do believe that these professionals do in their heads, think that is the best thing for the child because they haven't caught up on the research for the past 30 years. That tells us that's not true. But anyway, well, that's another podcast. So, what happens is that parents go into IEP meetings and they're not educators or they didn't go to school for this, and they're listening to these professionals who tell them, if you love your child, if you want your child to learn, you have to do what's best for your child, and that is not inclusion.

Monica: That is putting them in the small class with 1 to 1, not with their typical peers, you know, and that's what they're going to learn. So I think one of the greatest challenges is that they have professionals telling them that this is the right thing, even though they feel or they know that it's not.

Monica: Then we were sharing in a conversation recently that I recently had a case that went to court and the judge was saying to the parents, Why are you doing this? Don't you care about your child? The district wants to give them 1 to 1 instruction and you're fighting to have them in a bigger class. And then even some medical doctors are saying, well, your child belongs in a 1 to 1.

So the challenge for the parent is to stand up against teachers, child study team members, medical doctors, right? We all listen to our doctor judges who really don't understand the benefits of inclusive education.

And they're now trying to say, no, I know this is right, but they don't have anybody standing behind them. And I think that's what Maureen and I and other people who fight for inclusive education come in because we stand behind them and we say no, we're the experts. We've been doing this for 30 years. Here's all the research. We can support you.

But a big part of it is, you know, there is one person or two people in a meeting with all these experts saying if you love your child, you'll put them in the small classroom. So I think that's a huge challenge for them.

Maureen: And I think the other challenges for and it's really for districts, I think we've done a lot of training on inclusion. I think there's a cultural part of inclusion, there's a mindset, part of inclusion, and there's also a practical how-to part of inclusion.

I believe that a lot of people, you know, will say they believe in inclusion, but when it comes to really knowing how to appropriately support a child in an inclusive class, how to modify for them how to accommodate for them, they draw blanks or they'll try something for a week or two and, it doesn't work, this isn't working. Let's move them back to the more restrictive environment.

So I still think that educators’ minds need to be expanded and they need to believe that this is possible. And if they believe that this is possible, I think all of the other pieces will fall into place, meaning that they'll learn how to accommodate, they'll learn universal design for learning. They'll learn all of those things which will make parent's jobs when they're asking for inclusion, much easier.

Monica: And I think what you said, Maureen, is important. The mindset has to come first, because if we still go into the school and they say this is the inclusive classroom, we're doomed, right? All students need to be in all classrooms and then we just provide the support that everyone needs in every classroom.

But until we get to that point where we take away, like the inclusive classroom, we're not going to be there. Right? It has to be that all students are included in every classroom. So the mindset has to come and then we can continue to teach.

But there's a lot of teachers and even principals who feel like, oh, these students belong here.

It's still a segregation. And they have to earn their way in.

Another big challenge is, is regardless of what the Supreme Court has said, people still think kids have to earn their way into general education. We see that a lot. Oh, they have to have zero behaviors or they have to be on this reading level to be in general education.

Monica: So these are all challenges that parents are fighting day after day after day, and it becomes a full-time job for the parent and becomes exhausting. And if they don't have the right support, it just wears you down after a while. Especially parents who are working sometimes more than one or one job, two jobs, or they have multiple children, and then they're dealing with whatever the disability is, the medical piece of it, and all the other, like Maureen said, all the community pieces, it becomes very hard to keep that fight up unless you have support.

Maureen: I just think one of the things that Monica and I are doing a webinar on Monday morning about what inclusion looks like, and I've had the wonderful opportunity of visiting places like the Henderson School up in Massachusetts, visiting a school up in New York state that are fully inclusive, and it is a sight to behold. It is just an amazing sight to behold.

So I think, you know, we we talk about inclusion, but I think parents want to know what does this look like? So Monica and I are going to be doing a podcast on Monday that…not a podcast, a webinar that really shows what inclusion looks like in actual settings, and I would highly recommend if anybody has the opportunity to go to the school up in Boston, go visit the school in New York State to really see what an inclusive school community can be.

The webinar will also have a pretty active Facebook page, so it'll be on our Facebook page as well.

Arthur: Okay, great. Yeah, we'll definitely add that to the notes for the podcast episode and a link to that so people can view that, you know, at their leisure.

Yeah. So thank you for that. With parents as you mentioned, with everything going on and the jobs that they have and just everything and just life in general happening, it can be very challenging to keep up with their students and the inclusion and getting all of that taken care of.

So it really can be a challenging time for for parents. So the next part of the conversation I would like to talk about, what do you wish districts would understand about inclusive education and the importance of working collaboratively with parents.

Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This concludes part one of my conversation with Monica and Maureen.

Join us again in two weeks for part two, where Monica and Maureen share why it is important for districts to work collaboratively with parents. In the meantime, be sure to subscribe and catch up on all previous episodes of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.